Podcast: Interview with Cold Email Wizard

Looking for an alternative to Cold Email Mastery course? Check the Lead Generation Masterclass.

[00:00:09.110] – Alex Gray

All right, welcome to the Always Building podcast. Today we’ve got Daniel the man, the cold email wizard. The wizard of cold email email. Thank you for being on the podcast, man. I’m really excited to chat with you. We’re already kind of diving just off recording. We’re just already diving into some interesting shit. So I want to kick it off by asking you, and I know you’ve been on a lot of podcasts. We’ve heard a bit of the journey. I’m kind of curious to go even back a little bit further before the drop shipping, before trying to build the online businesses and kind of where is Daniel from? What was your schooling background? I’ll just kind of like the roots of the thing where you’re really coming from here and then leading up into the business. Shit, man.

[00:00:54.300] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah man thanks for having me on. So I grew up in Florida by Tampa, and I was always selling stuff in school. I had a job, worked at a grocery store in public, and they were like supreme customer support stuff. And I’ll kind of get back to that in a second. They were dudes selling. I had this one friend, and he was selling laser hair removers on ebay, and he tipped me off. He’s like, bro, go try this. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure. I’ll go try that. And then as you go through and there’s like, other people selling stuff to start talking to these other people, one guy is like, yo, these shoes are selling really well. Like, yo, these wristbands are selling really well. On it was over to ebay, just sourcing from AliExpress. So I’d just buy all this stuff and then sell it. And it’s funny when it comes down to it, it’s like you want to make money, you basically just sell what’s already being sold. So if it’s like someone’s if someone comes to you and says, yo, I’m selling a lot of these, like, laser hair removers, well, clearly then there’s demand for laser hair removers.

[00:01:57.370] – Cold Email Wizard

And probably go sell yourself, right? Find something that’s already working and just take it, right? So that was like, through high school. I went to school at Florida State. I have a finance degree. I basically don’t utilize that in any fashion whatsoever with what I do today. But when I was in college, I worked for Apple, and I saved I wrote down every single transaction I made throughout the entirety of college, and I saved 82% of everything I ever made, ever. I graduated a year early. I told my parents. I said, hey, I want to try to make it with this online business thing. I want to take a year. I just graduated year early. I have a bunch of money saved. I want to have a crack at this. Because I was already selling stuff, and I was like, oh, I think I can do this. So diving down a bunch of rabbit holes. The first thing I did was Amazon FBA. First product I ever got. An Amazon FBA. It took me like three weeks to make $7,000 profit. And I was like, holy shit, this is crazy. And then I thought I was smart, so I bought a bunch of garbage products and ended up, over time, like the entirety of that venture.

[00:03:05.580] – Cold Email Wizard

I ended up making like $0 I think would grow even, right? So this is about the point when Tai Lopez was getting big and selling a lot of his particularly his social media marketing course. I bought that and I was like, oh, that. Let’s do this. So I started going to a bunch of local businesses selling lead generation through Facebook ads and kind of like email flows in the back end, just like learning, going through learning. All this tech like learning click funnels learning. Like many chat for Facebook Messenger automation and ConvertKit get responses, email sending platforms and whatnot. So yeah, work with three med spots, worked with a nightclub who worked with an accounting firm. And I worked for two real estate agents. And you could see like, oh, you’re not niche down. You’re just working with anybody and everybody, right? So I was doing that for a while. I was making pretty good money with probably like 4000, 5000 a month. Not like astronomical money, but I was in a bar one time and with one of my friends, and he comes up and he showed me these pictures of these dudes in Arizona or some shit.

[00:04:15.130] – Cold Email Wizard

They were running an Instagram growth agency, and they’re making like a ton of money. And each has like 100,000 followers and whatnot. They’re like driving nice cars like Rangers and whatnot. I’m like, oh, I’m just going to go copy this. So that’s exactly what I did. I had to figure out, okay, well, first, how are you getting the clients results? How are you getting people Instagram followers? And this is back in the day when the activity page on Instagram is still there. So if you follow them, you get the activity page just following a ton of people. It’s like, oh, you’re going to follow one follow. So how do I learn that? I ended up buying this one guy’s course, Aaron Ward, and he taught you how to do it with this program called Jarvi. You’ve probably used Jarvi in the past. So what I did was I looked at these guys’website, I did some test runs myself to grow some pages, and it worked. So I knew how to do it at this point. So look at their page. It’s six testimonials. There were case studies. There were before and after pictures of people who gained a bunch of followers.

[00:05:11.440] – Cold Email Wizard

So I called emailed a bunch of people from Instagram. I picked a niche. It was fitness coaches. And what’s particularly great about Instagram is a lot of people just put their email on the email button on Instagram so you can easily get it. So that’s when I started. I built that whole business from Cold email. I built the page on Click Funnels, and I wanted to be a little different than these guys. I wanted to make sure my churn was low. So I learned how to use Click Funnels and how to do email lists, how to do all this stuff. So when they became a client, I put them in a members area with a bunch of videos that taught them how to do all this stuff so that you got access to a course too. I was trying to convert them from, hey, you’re just trying you came in here just under the impression that you want followers, but you should learn how to make money, right? And it was through teaching them how to also make money that made the churn so low. Almost nobody churned. It was like less than 5%. And at the peak of that, I had 76 people who were working with me.

[00:06:09.340] – Cold Email Wizard

And the max month was like $11,000, something profit, something like that. And then one day, Instagram changes an algorithm you can’t do on Follow anymore. So I’m like, oh, shit, whole business destroyed. But then I’m like, well, I just learned how to build this whole business with Cold emails. Let me do some inception here. Let me go sell Cold email as a service to marketing agencies that are exactly like me who are selling different things. So then you go into that, and then Cold Email wizard comes out of that, and then all the software apps come out of that.

[00:06:42.040] – Alex Gray

Amazing, man. Amazing. Yeah, no, this is great stuff. I think there’s a couple of things that I’d like to zoom in on. One is when you started out with the local businesses, the great Tai Lopez, niching down, man. Sounds like you kind of started just kind of going after anything. And I’m curious to hear your thoughts on sort of like, do you regret that strategy? In retrospect? Like, in retrospect, everything becomes clear, right? How do you feel about you doing that? And for people that are listening, they’re just getting going. Everyone’s like, niche down, niche down, niche down. And I know you probably get the same questions where a lot of people are like, what’s the best niche to choose? What the fuck am I doing right? And it’s like that experience that you have when you’re flipping niches. I’m kind of curious, just your thoughts on that and was that a good place to start for you? Just getting tons of experience with different kinds of businesses and just understanding, like, wow, I like that. I don’t like that.

[00:07:35.590] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, I can think back on it. And I knew the concept of Niching down. Like, I knew that people you have to niche down. You make more money when you niche down. But I was like, Well, I don’t know what niche to do, so I’m just going to go do a bunch of ones and see which one works. In retrospect, you obviously are like, oh, I should have just picked one and only did one. But from the perspective of a beginner, it’s like you don’t have just sufficient experience enough to always you’ll have that the grass is greener on the other side. You didn’t first hand experience why you shouldn’t do that work with everyone. And I’m the kind of dude who’s like, all right, yeah, I’ll listen to what you’re saying, but I want to go see for myself, too. That’s how a lot of people are too.

[00:08:23.290] – Alex Gray

I think that’s the only way that it really works, to be honest. I think there’s courses where it’s the blueprint to something that’s what I respect a lot about your course is that it seems to be very focused on people, that it’s how to do Cold email. It’s not the exact footprint journey that you’re, like, follow. Right. Like, the whole thing. Because there’s no way to do that. There’s no way to teach that. Anyone that says they can teach that, I believe personally. It’s like, everybody’s got to stumble and fall, right? Yeah.

[00:08:51.710] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s funny, because when we talk about that, I’m sure I think you went through my course, but it’s like, here’s how to do Cold email. You already need something to sell, right? Like, you need to have an offer to sell already. And if you have a good offer and you do the principles of, like, this Cold email thing, there’s an astronomical probability that it’s going to work. Exactly. It always works, given you have a good offer. Right. And I used to have another course, and it was get paid sending Cold emails, right? It was like, how to make a Cold email agent. I think Andre did that, and that’s how he, like, got into I remember Andre, like, way back in the day, like a year ago. I think he’s been messaging and interacting on Twitter and whatnot and telegram. But what happened was it was so cheap. I mean, it’s so cheap. It was like $50 or something. A bunch of people bought it. And then everyone starts doing that. And I hadn’t fully conceptualized, like, just the sheer force of, like I think at the time I had maybe, like 50 00, 60 00 Twitter followers, but the sheer force that can bring, like, if 100 people do that, it’s like, dude, that’s a lot of people selling the same thing to the same niche.

[00:10:06.400] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s just really annoying because if you tell someone, hey, I sell this to this niche, they just instantaneously copy it exactly. With zero deviations whatsoever. Right. At the point where what would happen is people buy that course, and then they would, like, talk to me as if their livelihood depended on me. And it was, like, my personal responsibility to make sure that their business would work from a $50 course. I was like, no, we’re not doing this game. I’m removing that course entirely. We’re not selling that anymore again, ever. And it’s just code email mastery.

[00:10:42.010] – Alex Gray

It’s great to hear. That’s great to hear, actually, because there’s a fine line between those things. One thing I want to ask you real quick that just kind of came off my head when you were saying that was pulled email for Market Research because also you got these guys obviously, I think when you’re a beginner, you don’t know what a good offer is quite. Yeah, right. It depends on your experience. You know what I mean? Some guys can start in sales jobs. Maybe they have a better idea. They got other guys kind of like hot out of school. I don’t know anything about anything. I’m just like living in mom’s house. Like what the fuck is a good offer? But Cold email from market research. I talked to a guy recently and he was running an agency where they slam out like 50,000 emails a month to several different niches and just like do this massive market research shit with cold email. And I thought that was really interesting. Like as an application, no good offer. Really? Maybe there’s a good offer on the back end but just kind of seeing what sticks, man. It’s kind of interesting.

[00:11:36.820] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, that is interesting because if you look at we did a poll, we have a Telegram channel, we did a poll and it was what’s your biggest problem right now? And it was the options were finding a good offer, getting leads, sales calls and fulfillment. And I think it was like 82% or some shit that were finding a good offer. Right. It’s very interesting. Like if you’re on Twitter and you see all these people like this guy is making money with this agency and this guy’s making money with this agency. But in retrospect, when you kind of look at it, assume like a money Twitter sphere is probably like 250,000 people or something like that.

[00:12:17.220] – Alex Gray


[00:12:19.610] – Cold Email Wizard

There’S like 50 people running a big business and that’s it. So all of the money is so absolutely categorized in such a small proportion of people and so many people. Step one is very interesting. People talk about why are there no client fulfillment courses, why are no client success courses? Because it’s like that market is like 1% or less of what is there. Right, exactly. Try to mass sell something like that. It’s like the first step is making the offer and getting the leads. So it’s like clearly step one is going to sell more in terms of volume and then from there you have to take those people, make sure they get success and send them beyond to something that increases incrementally in price.

[00:13:10.610] – Alex Gray

Absolutely. And I think it’s kind of funny that you say that too because I think the guys that I’ve seen were really put their money, where their mouth is on money. Twitter, specifically. Like, there’s a couple of guys I’m kind of blanking on the handles and everything right now. But there’s one guy and he’s reporting some really big numbers. It’s looking great. He’s got no followers. He’s just a dude in that kind of just on the sidelines there. But he’s doing some real good numbers on the agency. And I go and I kind of reverse engine. One time I was curious. I was like, what’s he actually doing? I’m kind of curious to see the agency and just see what he’s doing, man. It was the simplest I think this again, is why there’s not many courses on client fulfillment. Because it was the simplest fucking thing I’ve ever seen. It was just selling to real estate agents. I’m sorry. Mortgage. It was a mortgage play. And it was just a really good Legion system and kind of email marketing system for mortgage people. And he had a lot of social proof. It was like, dude, it doesn’t need to be complicated.

[00:14:08.520] – Alex Gray

I guess one part of that no, I think his name is Alex too, man. He’s another Alex out there.

[00:14:17.590] – Cold Email Wizard

Some dude. I was just talking with some dude, and he was telling me, he was like, yeah, I do mortgage marketing and whatnot. And I was selling to $500 clients. And he goes, well, just recently I got on the phone with this super big guy, and he loved my drive. And he told me I would have to pay you $5,000 plus performance fees. And he’s like, dude, it’s like, why am I even going to bother with these $500 guys? He’s like, I hate working with them. And it’s like if you sign a $500 client and you’re doing like Facebook ad, lead generation for them, it’s like you’re sitting here. What’s their ad budget? Like $300 a month. It’s a good walk. Getting anything done with that.

[00:14:56.340] – Alex Gray

Yeah. Now they’re not ready to invest in themselves. I mean, the guys that they do the mortgage was crazy, but the offer was just so simple. And their offer, man, I mean, I’ll just say the offer out loud. I don’t think anybody’s going to mind. His offer was basically like, we’ll get you 60 qualified appointments within three months. That was like the big banner offer that’s getting these guys to convert like crazy. And yeah, $300 a month. These guys probably paying $300,000 a month in ad budget, right? Some of these mortgages I mean, it blew my mind where I was like, yeah, man. It’s like, this is why people get stuck is just because it’s so simple. It’s not easy, but it’s so damn simple. And people tend to overcomplicate it, I think. I’m curious. What are your thoughts on that, man? On the overcomplication? Simplicity was one of the notes I had. Simplicity and focus was one of the notes I had to talk to you about because I do admire, man, like your fucking laser focus and simplicity. It’s kind of becoming a theme on this podcast that I love to just grill people about because I just admire it, honestly.

[00:15:55.030] – Alex Gray

So, yeah, I’m curious what you think about that.

[00:15:56.970] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, it’s really interesting because I feel like I like this concept of entrance points. And I’m going to give you an example. So, like, while I was selling, I was running like a full white we gen shit. What I started to do was instead of pitching a full lead generation as a service package, what I would do is because you own Lis kit, so it’s really funny. I would sell email list, right? And what would happen is you get on the phone with these people and some percent of them are going to be like, well, okay, this sounds really cool. You can scrape emails from Instagram. You can scrape ecommerce stores. You can do all this. What do I do with these emails? Right? And then now you have an end point. Oh, you don’t even know what to do with this. Well, we can do this. I can tell you this. I can tell you this. Could tell you this. I can tell you this, right? So it’s just simplicity and I could scrape anything. But I found from split testing, the most response to the most interest rate would come from scraping emails from Instagram.

[00:17:03.490] – Cold Email Wizard

So I would pitch, hey, I can scrape email addresses from Instagram for you. And then they get in the phone and then you can tell them about all the other things that you do. And I had signed this one guy and he was a part of Trends. I don’t know if you know what Trends is. Like the hustle with my first million podcasts, he told me he posted that he could get this done and was like white labeling it back to me. And he got like 30 something orders in two days. And I made like $12,000 or some shit. And I was like, holy shit. Because it was so simple. It was like, tell me whose followers you want to scrape. Here you go. Here’s all of them, right? It was the most simple thing ever. I found another offer, too, that I’d like to talk about. There is one of the email, one of the email copywriter guys, he put it on Twitter one time. He goes, I will write five emails for you, and if you don’t make at least $5,000 I think it was a percent, he takes like 20% and he goes, if you don’t make at least 5000, I get nothing.

[00:18:26.360] – Cold Email Wizard

Oh, that’s like a kind of a good offer right there. It’s just a simple yeah, you have an email list. I’ll write the Melod to make you more money.

[00:18:35.160] – Alex Gray

When it comes back to knowing the ideal client, I mean, ecommerce is one of those things where it’s so transparent that the revenue is right there right in the dashboard. He puts the email, sends it, and then he’s watching the fucking numbers change. So it’s like indeed to be obviously so much harder to do that you can’t really like there’s like margins and things. But yes, knowing that audience and being like, dude, I’ve done it before. I can push a button, make you five GS, and then just give me a cut of that. It’s absolutely brilliant, man. It just doesn’t need to be complicated. I love what you brought up to like, going from that simplicity, having a simple hook. And I know you’re teaching this a lot right now and kind of throwing this out in the Telegram group. I’ve seen you tweeting about it. The simple hook that’s in demand, like instagram scraping. Another example is a buddy of both of ours, Alex, from close to this commission closer thing right now is like and I interviewed him on the podcast too, and it was mind blowing how much demand there is right now in the world for that thing.

[00:19:31.860] – Alex Gray

So if you just mentioned that it’s just a column where you go commission closers, you don’t even need to write a full sentence. And people are like, yes, and then, so what are you going to take from there? Where are you going to take it from there? Maybe some people aren’t ready. What are you going to offer to them? This is all like exactly what you said, kind of leading in with that thing that already has demand and then kind of splintering that out into different offers. I think you’re a living example of how that can work.

[00:19:59.230] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s super interesting because if you look at it, you have all these other points. Like, you sell liskit to a particular kind of person. You sell clean leads to a particular person. You sell contact ecommerce. You sell column mastery to a particular person. I want to break it down real quick. Imagine this giant circle, and within that circle is labeled people Who Want to Make Money Online. Big circle, right?

[00:20:21.840] – Alex Gray


[00:20:22.590] – Cold Email Wizard

There’s a smaller circle. It’s people who have decided that they’re going to sell a service business to make money, an agency and freelancing, right? And then within that circle is people who are aware that you can get clients with cold email. And then within that circle is people who are actively cold emailing. And at each point, each of these people can be sold something different. So it’s like, say, for instance, someone comes along and they want to make money online, okay? They find my Twitter profile and they’re like, or they find a bunch of other people, they see agency and whatnot. So, okay, I’m going to make an age. I want to make a service business. And they’re like, okay, now I need clients for the service business. So they get cold email mastery from me and they’re like, oh, I need to write first lines for the emails. Okay, quick lines like, oh, I need to scrape emails. Like, okay, scrape info to get coaches. And then they’re like, Now I need to send the emails. Okay, mail arrives. Okay, so I got some clients now I need to scale. And it’s like, okay, client ascension.

[00:21:18.960] – Cold Email Wizard

The coaching program. I have an Andre, so it’s like every single possible point that you would otherwise experience in the entirety of the journey, I am trying to have an offer for. I’m trying to fill the entire thing.

[00:21:34.840] – Alex Gray

This leads me right to one of the things that I wrote down, a big note here, and I want to zoom in on this big time, because I think for people that are trying to choose a niche, what’s the name right you’ve just laid out? It’s not so much like, obviously there’s a niche involved there, but it has levels to it, and the more centered you go into that it used to be the old school HubSpot kind of funnel, right? The triangular funnel. Now you’re kind of looking at it like a circle, which I think is even better. It’s like a flywheel kind of thing that’s going spiraling, and you even have some fibonacci shit going on in there. Who knows? Some nature involved in this thing. But you’re going more in market and more in market and more in market until you’re literally like, going in on that person that’s like, I’m ready to invest, to blow this thing up and actually get to this next level and do what you’re doing in another space. One of the notes I took down was marketing in public. So we got billed in public. And what you tweeted about the other day, and I was making me think about it, because what you’re kind of doing is like, marketing in public.

[00:22:36.780] – Cold Email Wizard

You’re teaching people.

[00:22:38.250] – Alex Gray

You’re not just teaching people through the courses. You’re not just giving this information of how to call the email. You’re actually kind of going through and marketing in public of how you’re targeting the people you’re targeting. Who is the person ingesting that tweet? It’s very kind of a meta meta marketing. I kind of coined it as marketing in public. When I wrote a note down, I was like, that’s kind of what he’s doing, so I’d love you. You may be the only one doing this. A lot of people building in public. Not sure there’s many marketing in public. What’s your thought process behind that? How did you start doing that? Was that just some natural thing you just started doing? Because it’s very strange because a lot of people me include I’m an older guy. I’m kind of like keeping the secrets, a little bit of secrets. But I’m curious. You’re so transparent, and it’s kind of cool. So I’m curious to chat about that for a second.

[00:23:31.160] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s probably just like a personality thing, because I feel like I just wanted to that’s just who I am. Kind of naturally I’m extremely direct. I’m going to tell you exactly what I’m thinking. And it’s like I kind of like, can’t hide it. I feel like I’m hiding something. So I don’t really want to hide. I’m just going to tell you exactly what I’m doing. And now this has a one off effect where it’s like people would see like, oh, that’s really like, I’ll make a tweet. I’m like, hey, I’m going to do this. And the purpose of me doing this is to try to get you to go here and then buy this. Right. I’ll just say it and then that’s kind of interesting to them where they’re like, that’s funny. Yeah. And it kind of runs off where they think like, oh, what if I end up buying your stuff? You’re probably going to be operating the exact same fashion and tell me how something is directly and not going to sugarcoat it, where it’s like you were getting like someone’s course and it’s just so much nonsense. And it’s like I don’t know.

[00:24:31.450] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s a very strange way they put on this kind of like professional face. And it’s not really damn, I just don’t like that. I wanted to just, like, in videos that I make, I want it to be exactly who I am because I figured what this would do is it might repel a certain amount of people. However, the people that it pulls will really like me and then that will have a runoff effect in that they might refer out like, hey, this guy’s actually really cool. Like I released something like, hey, I really like that. I’ll really trust I’m going to get that. I trust it’s going to be something good. So kind of like a personality thing. But I understand some people might want to hide their stuff, but I’m kind of just like, whatever.

[00:25:10.840] – Alex Gray

I think it kind of leads me into another thing I wanted to talk to you about, about kind of building a semi personal brand. Also because you’re a quasi personal, but I’m not sure how to say this, but you’re building a brand that it is you, but you’ve got this kind of name, this icon. You’re building a brand, but you’re also like, I don’t know. You could exit from Cold email wizard empire, theoretically speaking, right? It could happen because it’s not Daniel, it’s Cold email wizard. But yes, I kind of your thoughts on that too, because I think that’s sort of the marketing. So the marketing in public, there’s a psychological thing that you’re doing there, I think, where you’re kind of leading people. You’re almost like plotting the steps out for them in a very kind of meta way where they’re kind of like going, like, I like this guy because he’s not sugarcoating anything. But in fact, too, you’re also kind of showing them this is the path. Like, start here, go here, I’m going to do this so that you. End up here. And it’s sort of like the psychological kind of like subconscious thing where it’s like, oh, yeah, I’m going to go there, I’m going there.

[00:26:16.160] – Alex Gray

Also, you’re talking about being super genuine, which I think is the only marketing tactic that’s going to work going into the 2030 for whatever, right into this continuum. The only thing that’s going to work is more genuine and more genuine and being a bit polarizing, man. It’s like the best marketing technique. So your semi personal brand has all these things inside of this universe. I assume all this happened kind of organically. Like, maybe it was sort of a joke. Maybe you just started some because it’s also Black Hat Wizard, which immediately I love because, again, I kind of, like, grew up with hackers and shit. So black Hat Wizard, it was hilarious to me. Yeah, she can kind of ruminate a bit on that, man. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts, like, just on the semi personal brand versus the personal brand in your experience.

[00:27:06.150] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah. So you ever get a cold email or some kind of marketing message from some company and it’s like we said the word we? It’s very annoying to me because it’s like, who’s we? Like, are there multiple people talking to me right now or is it you? What’s your name? Who are you? I hated that, where it’s like, we want to make sure you like, bro, shut up. No, it’s you who is talking to me. Right? So it’s like any of my software apps and you start getting follow up emails. It’s from me. It’s not like, oh, this is from Contact Ecommerce team or the Clean Leads team. No, it’s from me. It’s from Daniel. Right? I’m talking to you. You want to reply to reply to me. Right. That kind of rolled into the Cody my wizard brand were like, yes, it’s a brand, but it’s me. There’s no way I’m not going to write we. I hate that. It just pissed me off. So I wanted to just not be one of those where it’s like, it’s not going to be a we. And it’s always in a cold email, too. If I’m writing a cold email, it’s an I.

[00:28:10.480] – Cold Email Wizard

I’m never putting we because I hate that concept of seeing we.

[00:28:14.960] – Alex Gray

I love that. I love that. And I’m curious, do you know and this may be interesting for other people too have you ever interacted with the guy from Charm Offensive? Have you ever heard this guy before?

[00:28:23.810] – Cold Email Wizard

I bought his stuff, but I didn’t go through it. But I’m on his email list and I read cool.

[00:28:29.660] – Alex Gray

His emails are fucking insanely good. But he’s the only other guy that I can sort of say has a similar, like, this semi personal brand. Because it’s him. He’s never saying we. It’s always from him. It’s this thing that he’s doing, but it’s like, it’s Charm Offensive, which is also this kind of funny, funny name, you know what I mean? Similar kind of deal. But I think, yeah, both of you guys kind of resonated with me. You happen to both be in cold email too. So I thought that was really funny, but I was wondering if you had ever seen that or interacted or talked to him before.

[00:29:00.550] – Cold Email Wizard

Actually he had a really good ad that I bought it from. It was the drunk cold email.

[00:29:05.590] – Alex Gray

Oh yeah, so good. Anybody listening? If you have not checked that dude out too, I mean, there’s that’s something else to expand your horizons. Not everybody can pull it off. I will say not everybody can pull I think there’s people who are funny and there’s people who are not funny. I hate to say sort of like a line there, but this motherfucker is funny, man. He’s a funny, funny dude.

[00:29:28.140] – Cold Email Wizard

Anyway, what I want to talk about though in regards to that is like, yes, he might be good at cold email, but what you should really learn from him as an exception, point, is he made a really good ad. So learn from the ad. He writes really good emails. Learn from what he’s writing in the emails and it’s like you too and it’s like you sit here and it’s like, okay, yeah, I can show you how to get clients for your service business. I can do that. But you should also learn from me what I’m doing, like building an audience. You buy some of my stuff, look at the emails you get. Go to that landing page. Oh, you have to buy that. What happened after you did that logically, how is everything pulling together here? How cross selling all these things and leading some person to some other thing and then another and another. You should understand that concept because what’s going to happen is say you build a service business and say you get the service business to 10,000 and 20,030 thousand. You guys are like $50,000 a month right now. You’ve got like seven employees or some shit like that.

[00:30:31.750] – Cold Email Wizard

Now you are starting to begin to realize because you’ll hit like 50,000, so you’re profiting like 30,000 a month or something like that. It’s like, okay, now you might be under the impression that you hit like 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, like, oh, that’s enough money. It’s not at that point you’re going to be like, oh, this is actually kind of relatively easy. How could I just for the fuck if it gets 100,000 a month without waiting another two years to get like 25 employees? And the answer is either for digital products or software. And that’s basically the only way you’re going to get there fast. So that is the next logical progression forward for you, right? And you should kind of look at how other people are running those businesses, right? Because that’s the ultimate scale right there. Particularly software.

[00:31:24.260] – Alex Gray

That’s right. That’s wisdom right there, man. I mean, people. You get to that point. I mean, also, I think thinking from it from another perspective as well, how can I help these I got this audience. I’m helping them, but I’m helping them at this level. How can I help them more? What can I do to help them more? Essentially like that? And things are just going to expand.

[00:31:47.290] – Cold Email Wizard

They’ll tell you what they want, too.

[00:31:49.740] – Alex Gray

Yeah, you’ll get those questions, man. You’ll always get those questions. How about your journey on that, going from agency to SAS? Because I know you ran an agency and then you were rolling. I don’t know if you still run that. Are you still running the agency or you’ve left that. You’re 100% into the game.

[00:32:07.120] – Cold Email Wizard

I do one product, okay, one thing. And I also do it for quick lines. So I’ll help along with quick line scripts, and then I do it with one guy. It’s selling loans to very high value companies. That’s the only thing I got you.

[00:32:22.240] – Alex Gray

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. But that’s more of a partnership. And again, I think this is this transition from agency to SAS. How did that journey work out for you? I mean, I know you just kind of explained it in general terms, but for you, was that kind of like a natural transition? I know that you hooked up with SAS Whiz, and I know there’s some different networking. Maybe we can get a little bit into the networking of it. I know you’re a non technical founder, so to speak, as they say in hacker news or whatever. And so, yeah, like that experience as a nontechnical founder, because I know there’s a lot of folks out there, me included, that just sort of, like, expanded into that. I kind of have a semi technical background. That’s why I kind of like I sort of speak the language a little bit. I got to some JavaScript and shit. But as far as you going in there as a nonchnical founder, how did that journey work? And did you kind of feel like you were just attracting those people? Or were you out there really like, trying to network with folks like that or kind of how did you make that transition?

[00:33:20.190] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, so the original function of, like, holding my Master used to just be an e book, and the function of it was to acquire clients for the service business. That was always the idea. And I had thought, I’m like, listen, if I’m going to buy a course because I want to understand the concept, and people who would buy the service also have an interest in understanding the concept. So there is logically going to be some percent of people who buy the course who would buy the service. So it might be 5%, it might be 2%, but when they do convert, they’re going to be worth multiple thousands of dollars in LTP, right? Yes, that was a function ebook. I think it was like $27 or like $17 or something. When I first go east, it and it did get clients. It got a lot of clients. So it did the job correctly, right? It fulfilled that very small percent of people who did convert to a client. However, I was affiliating for some other software apps, and there was this one that kind of kicked it off for me where I had referred I should have been getting paid, like, $4,000 a month from this one guy, and he refused to pay the affiliate commission.

[00:34:40.380] – Cold Email Wizard

And to this day to this day, he deactivated it. But he still has, like he can’t stop it in First Promoter. From the people I already acquired, to this day, I still get emails from people renewing. Like, you earned a new reward. Right? He went into First Promoter and just, like, turned it off, right? And just like, I was like, all right, you can go fuck yourself. I’m going to replicate things. So at this particular point in time, do you know Matthew Pike?

[00:35:11.310] – Alex Gray

I do, yeah. I don’t know him personally, but no.

[00:35:13.900] – Cold Email Wizard

I’m selling his agency course, and he’s a developer, so I went with him. I was like, Yo, let’s replicate this. Because like, fuck this guy. He’s like, all right, cool. Let’s do it. So we did. We replicated it. That’s clean leads. And then you just get the common question from the same people over and over again, hey, I sell ecommerce stores. How can I scrape ecommerce stores? And I’m like, yeah, okay. Contact Ecommerce. And that one’s with SAS. And I found SAS was from just interacting private telegram groups from Twitter, like, you know, hey, yo, you should come join this telegram group.

[00:35:51.970] – Alex Gray

Got you. So Community kind of brought you guys together in a way. Very interesting. Yeah.

[00:36:00.940] – Cold Email Wizard

I kind of talk to him, and it was like and I was like, you’re a developer. There’s a huge need for people who need ecommerce leads. I know how to get them. If we could just make some kind of interface that allows them to unlock them. He’s like, oh, yeah, that’s easiest bucket to be, like, 2000. So it’s like, okay, bam. We partner on that. It’s like, we release that and like, okay, now that’s a business, right? And then you come to the next logical step where it’s like, well, we can replicate a platform for sending Cold emails. Okay, bam. Right? And then it’s like with Nick Abraham and Sam Thompson on quick lines, it’s like, okay, well, people are hiring first line riders. Try to make an app to automate that. Okay, quick lines, right? So it’s like it’s kind of just going down the line and like, you want to make it SAS, and you’re not a technical person. You should partner with someone who is already a developer and give them equity.

[00:36:52.840] – Alex Gray


[00:36:53.020] – Cold Email Wizard

You’re a partner. That’s what Russell Bronson did. What’s his name? Yeah, russell bronson doesn’t code.

[00:37:01.310] – Alex Gray

No, man. He’s got a hardball it’s. Steve, that’s wonderful. I love a couple of parts of that story. Just the power of networking, the power of sort of joining communities and getting involved and just being in these different spaces and just kind of like just.

[00:37:19.160] – Cold Email Wizard

Something to touch on here too. There’s kind of like two categories of Twitter. It’s kind of like within money. Twitter. It’s like the positive guys and then, like the douchebags. And it’s like, yeah, some of the douchebags are like, cool, but there’s like a category of them who are just obnoxiously annoying. And what happens is that they just go on the timeline and like, yeah, maybe they run a business, but they’re like dicks this talk shit to everyone. And it’s like, good luck getting anyone on your side to do anything in such a fashion that I’ve done. It’s like, cool. You run your little agency, and it’s like you make like 20,000, 30,000, but it’s like, you think you’re going to get to 150 or yourself. Like, it’s not going to happen. You’re being an asshole to everyone you come across and acting like a dude.

[00:38:03.850] – Alex Gray

Well, you know, it’s funny. I think Sass was mentioned something, actually, that I saw. I bought his course recently, actually, because I want to check that out on the sport. But he said something like, money Twitter is getting too full of Redditors. The way that he said it, it’s like people from Reddit being funneled into the Twitter verse, which really cracked me up, the way that he said it. There’s you. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to market on Reddit, but good God, man. You post something. Oh, man. It’s like pulling teeth, dude. You drop something if you put a link in there, man, you’re going to get this just swarm of shit that’s like self promotion. Why are you doing this?

[00:38:40.480] – Cold Email Wizard


[00:38:40.710] – Alex Gray

This is like, wow, man. I did a bit of it to lift it, actually, and kind of finally started to understand the mechanics of it. Like, you just have to kind of get into okay, the mind is okay. Just take a deep breath and figure that out. How can I add value here? But good god, it’s that kind of person. It’s the Reddit person, the nine gag person or whatever that is.

[00:39:00.940] – Cold Email Wizard

Sasswich made a post one time when we had first released Contact Ecom. And Contact Ecommerce, I think made like $12,000 in the first month. And he made a post on Reddit and like, I don’t know, entrepreneurs or some shit about how we made 12,000 in the first month. And he showed me the comments of it, and they were like, no, this is fake. You didn’t make that. There’s no way you could have did that. Who would pay for leads of Ecommerce stores? Like, you’re lying. Like, you’re just making stuff. And it’s like, here’s the stripe screenshot. Like, what do you mean, here’s the website.

[00:39:33.640] – Alex Gray

Yeah, dude, I don’t know what font Stripe is using here. Dude, I didn’t fudge this, man. Like, good God. Well, I want to transition this conversation into working with in lieu of that and contact Ecommerce and just how simple all this, because, again, it just goes back to simplicity. You guys are just you’re solving simple problems. But check it out. In my experience of what I’m seeing from what you guys are doing, and in my own experience, working with the old you, like working with the you from five years ago, from depending on your situation, how old you are you from ten years ago right. Versus working with strange that you don’t understand. I think this is one thing I really wanted to get in with you because it’s obviously one of the keys to your success so far. I think anyone that’s successful, it’s kind of like you always kind of find this story in some way, shape, or form. I had this problem and fuck it, I just went out on my own and solved it. You know what I mean? I solved my own problem from the past. And I think that SAS.

[00:40:36.420] – Alex Gray

As far as SAS go, that’s the only way to make a successful staff if you’re solving your own problem. There’s so many people that go out there and try to solve a problem for a lawyer or a fucking accountant, and they’re not an accountant. And getting that customer feedback doesn’t make sense and nothing. They’re guessing too much. So I’m curious kind of like what, you know, your thoughts of selling, because a lot of folks are going out there. I know there’s a lot of opportunity in the boomer world. I don’t know how else to call it, but these baby boomers obviously have money. They’re running successful businesses. There are guys running trash businesses, guys running plumbing businesses that are doing seven figures, eight figures a year, but working with the old you, and it goes back into your genuine nature of the semipersonal brand, the whole thing. I’m curious kind of like rounding that out with just kind of like your success with working with that old version of yourself or with solving your own problems.

[00:41:29.550] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, it’s really interesting because someone can come up and they can be like, what’s the best way to market research? And I really can’t give you the best advice because I have exclusively sold things to past versions of myself where it’s like, I sit here and it’s like, okay, I built the Instagram agency, and then that died, and then I just sold as a service what I was otherwise doing anyway, right? And then I made Cody Mastery, which was selling to other replications of myself, right. And I made the software, which was selling to other replications of myself. And then me and Andre and Dan and Christian made the coaching program, which is selling to other replications of myself.

[00:42:09.270] – Alex Gray

Which is coming out today, by the way, at the recording of this podcast, november 3, coming out today. That coaching program?

[00:42:16.260] – Cold Email Wizard


[00:42:20.440] – Alex Gray

You better be a damn hustler, man. You better be ready. Ready to jump in boot camp. Yeah, but go ahead.

[00:42:30.640] – Cold Email Wizard

So if someone comes into the coaching program and they’re kind of like, well, I don’t know what needs to work with. And basically what I would be like is just, okay, tell me everything you have done, ever. And then they’re just going to walk me through the entirety of their life story in the same fashion with which I presented mine to you earlier, right? I need to know what you know how to do. I need to know what you’ve done, right? And then I’m going to cross reference that with the conversations I have had because I’m talking to like 1020 people a day on Twitter. Like, I’m getting a ton of messages. I respond to the messages and I just know the shit that’s going on, right? So I can kind of cross reference that, like, oh, you do this. Let’s switch this up a little bit because I know there’s this issue within this market, right, and you are uniquely positioned to work with this one because I know you’ve done this, right? So it’s like everyone’s kind of different and you kind of have to sit because my journey is like four years long, right?

[00:43:29.350] – Cold Email Wizard

So it’s like if you’re sitting here and you’re trying to hit like you’ve never made like a $15,000 month ever in your life, maybe you sit at three K and you’re trying to get to 15. It’s like it took me like, two years to do that. So it’s like, hopefully given exact direction from me, Andre, Kristen, and Dan. It’s like we can do that in like 90 days instead of the same shit over and over again. But we’ve already personally done it, so it’s all the direction.

[00:43:58.410] – Alex Gray

Well, it’s clarity, man. It’s clarity. I mean, it’s so hard when you’re at that like 3000 a month, man. I know that struggle, man, because you’re just trying to find clarity. Everyone’s going, you need a good offer, you need this and you’re going, fuck, I’m just so overwhelmed with all this information and all these ideas I have and all these things, right? So having somebody I mean, just having some accountability and somebody there to give you some clarity and go, dude, that idea is fucking stupid, and you go, oh, shit, that idea is stupid. Jesus Christ. Thank you. You know what I mean? Just that like that thing right there can just tip you off and you just start snowballing, you know what I mean? You just start wheeling out.

[00:44:35.430] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s super frustrating when you’re a beginner, particularly if you decide upon some offer and say, okay, I’m going to go test this out. I’m going to send some Cold emails and see if there’s interest and you buy the domain and you warm it up in two weeks. You get all the leads, wrote all the first line, start sending the emails. You send like 200 emails. You’re like, oh, maybe it’s the script. And then like, change up the script. It’s like, oh, it’s still not working well, is it the deliverability? Is it my landing page? And it’s like you don’t know which component it is. Is it the offer? And you don’t know what it is that’s wrong, right? And that takes a long time to understand because someone could give me like a breakdown of everything that’s happening and I’ll just go, oh, no, it’s that. Just do that. You don’t know that when you’re a beginner, though, because you just don’t have sufficient experience. You haven’t been subjected to enough instances of the same thing over and over.

[00:45:29.820] – Alex Gray

That’s right. It’s the power of having some guidance and some community in the situation too, man. I know for me, I had like ten years of shit or eight years of shit where I was just like doing fucking anything that flew to me just because it was like, you know what I mean? I had no guidance. Like, I’m all alone. When you’re a freelancer, especially, you’re just like sitting in a room. You’re just like, fuck, I mean, I just got to get the work done. And getting outside of yourself, having somebody outside of yourself and somebody who has experience doing shit like you do, like Andre does, you know what I mean? Like all you guys do. It’s like being able to just get you know, it’s just being able to ask a damn question and get a damn answer. That’s not like, yeah, the deliverability, man. That’s the funniest question I hear is the deliverability. It’s like a god, man, don’t worry about deliverability.

[00:46:21.260] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s almost never your deliverability.

[00:46:23.100] – Alex Gray

It’s almost never that. And it’s almost like it becomes a cop out, I think, at some point. And when you’re just all alone, you start copping out.

[00:46:31.290] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s a micro optimization.

[00:46:34.910] – Alex Gray

It’s like changing a button color or some shit on your landing page, right?

[00:46:38.670] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s like you changing the button from red to blue isn’t going to make you make an extra 10,000 next month.

[00:46:44.200] – Alex Gray

It’s not maybe for like Sears or like fucking, I don’t know, like a JCPenney or some shit. Maybe that would work. But yeah. And that’s the funny thing too, about the information overload out there. There’s so much complex information. You can go to conversion, Excel and Nerd out for 5 hours on just like conversion optimization, but you didn’t actually learn anything actionable, whereas yeah, go ahead.

[00:47:07.930] – Cold Email Wizard

You know what the primary thing that is wrong with a lot of people are trying to sell something and they don’t look at their operation from a third person perspective. And I’m going to give you an example of this. Say someone they write a cold email and it looks like an ad, and it’s just it’s so obnoxiously written, and you need to have the social awareness of what you would otherwise write. Imagine it’s a letter. You wrote the letter to this person, right? So it has to read as if it’s a letter, right? You’re speaking directly to a singular human, so write it in that tone, right? And then they’ll just, like, not have a website either. And it’s like, all right, I’ll go to these guys and I’ll be like, let me make sure I’m understanding this correctly. You’re going to write this shitty cold email that looks like a mask. It looks like you’re scamming. Like it’s legit, like they copied the same domain. And they go to a site and it doesn’t redirect anywhere. It doesn’t exist. Or they go there and there’s like, no https SSL gives them this is an unsecured site, and there’s like, it looks like shit.

[00:48:32.290] – Cold Email Wizard

They don’t see your face. There’s nothing. And I go to them and I break this down for them. Clearly. I’m like, if you got this, if this happened to you, what do you do? And then it was only when I just tell them that this looks scammy as shit. Send this email to yourself. Go with what you logically do. It looks like you’re about to get scammed. That’s why this isn’t working. Go back with a third person perspective. Understand what’s happening.

[00:49:05.810] – Alex Gray

You said the letter. The one I always like to use is being in person at a trade show, because I used to do work with companies where manufacturing companies and shit. We have to go to the trade show, and I’d be, like, checking the trade show booth, making sure everything’s cool and shit. But I’d be hanging out at these trade shows, and I’d see that interaction and it’s like, yeah, you need to write a cold email like you’re walking up.

[00:49:25.720] – Cold Email Wizard


[00:49:25.930] – Alex Gray

Hey, what’s up, Daniel? Hey, man, I got this idea for you. You know what I mean? I’m curious. Do you have a second that we could speak about it real quick? It’s, like, so personal, and you have to feel that nervousness, right? Like, that you feel when you’re, like, in a new place with new people, and it’s, like, exactly what you’re saying. You need to really put yourself in the shoes of, like, man, this isn’t just some, like, weird I don’t know, this isn’t some hack that you could just, like, send these things out and you get clients, right? It has to be genuine. And back to the info product thing, I really think you really laid out a nice blueprint. And anybody listening, I think, take this to heart. Because one thing, and I want to get your experience on this, that I’ve noticed is that when you’re teaching stuff, no matter how simple it is, because obviously, imposter syndrome can kick in, you can lose that confidence real quick. I have in the past a million times and been like, damn, this is so simple, why would I teach this, right? But then you realize that like you said, in that circle, there are people that they don’t know what you’re talking about.

[00:50:26.040] – Alex Gray

And that going from an info product into a service, especially when you’re getting started, is so brilliant. And I kind of want to get your experience on sort of like I feel like when you’re teaching, you actually learn more, you actually enhance your, you become a better whatever it is you’re doing, you know what I mean? By teaching, by throwing that knowledge out there and by talking to more people. And for people that are just beginning, I think it’s like, you just got to do this, man. And I want to get your kind of insights on that.

[00:50:53.430] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, so let me help some people who might feel some kind of imposter syndrome, say what you’re like going to teach or show or do is incredibly simple to you. And we’ll just use code emo as the example. Let’s say we’re selling cold email as a service or we’re selling a cold email course, right? So our target market is people who don’t call email. We’ve never called email, right? So now you might be thinking like, oh, what if there’s like a cold email pro and they buy it and they didn’t want anything and they asked for a refund and it’s like, okay, let’s solve that problem. Let’s put on the landing page. Who is this for? People who have never got a client with cold email. People who don’t know how to run a cold email campaign. Now you have instantaneously solved that problem in 2 seconds, right? This is for people who don’t know how to code email. If you know how to code email and you are a cold email pro, this is not for you.

[00:51:58.610] – Alex Gray

And if you want to go next level and teach the cold email pros, right, you have the button. Are you a cold email pro? Go to this page. You’re on the wrong page, bro. Go to this page. So no, that’s amazing, man. That’s really helpful, I think, for people. Man, you got to get started, man, you got to get started. And teaching, no matter how early you want, you’re just beginning. Obviously you need to go out there and throw that spaghetti and get your hands dirty and all that. But I feel like if you’re at that point where you have a skill, you need to start teaching it immediately. And I think it’s a mistake I made and continue to make, man. It’s just like that’s the first thing you should be doing is making content. And something that I’ve learned recently, making content and being able to write and being able to speak about what you’re good at is just so huge. There’s people out there that can’t do that, right? They’re not an expert. You’re an expert. If you can write and. Speak about the thing you’re doing. I think at the end of the.

[00:52:48.010] – Cold Email Wizard

Day, in terms of outbound lead generation, like Cold email, cold LinkedIn messages, yeah, that’s cool. But you need to have you to funnel that into social proof, right? Like you got a LinkedIn profile, you post content in your profile, you have a bunch of connections, they recommend you for things, right? You have a Twitter, you got a bunch of followers and Instagram, you got a bunch of followers because it is only through code emails really cool if you’re trying to get to 10,000 or 20,000 per month or you sell extremely high ticket things like ten K Plus, right?

[00:53:24.360] – Alex Gray

That’s right.

[00:53:24.990] – Cold Email Wizard

Beyond that, it is time to focus on getting inbound inbound leads, right? You need to make content. You need to have some social profile. LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram. And it has to be symmetric with what your target audience is. Like if you’re selling to mortgage brokers, you should probably be on LinkedIn and not Twitter, right? If you’re selling people who run agencies, who do drop shipping, you should probably do Twitter, right? You need somewhere, you need to post something that social proof is so important because without it, it’s going to go a lot. The past two $100,000 a month is going to be a lot faster.

[00:54:08.140] – Alex Gray

Yeah, it’s like you’ll make money hustling, but if you can create and I think of content as assets, right? I mean in social media, blogs, SEO, all that stuff, I mean, it’s not hard. People make it complicated so that they can charge a lot of money and kind of do their thing with it, right? But in reality, all that stuff is just man, you’re working with people, right? Get questions from them. You’re going to get a bunch of questions, write that shit down and answer the question somewhere whether that’s on social media, do it on all those platforms if you want to, right? Like do that. And I think that’s something that’s a big mistake a lot of people make is that they don’t focus on that from the get go. Because also the Cold emails will make a bigger it’s like you’re saying when you type in the URL, are you getting the security certificate that this is a malicious site? What are you seeing when you’re like copying and pasting that URL? If you’re seeing some authority ass shit where you’re talking about this subject and ruminating on the future of the industry and whatever, like hosting a podcast, you’re doing this, you’re doing that, you’re doing that, you’re active in the place, right?

[00:55:08.190] – Alex Gray

It’s a totally different you don’t look like you’re going to get scammed. I love how you said that. You don’t look like you’re going to get scammed because 99% of the Cold emails look like a damn scam. So I want to back up a little bit real quick and I think we’re getting to the end of this, but I wanted to talk to you about social media for a second because you just mentioned it. I think you are exceptional at social media from my standpoint. I’m curious about your social media strategies, how you’ve grown, your influence on social media, and just kind of your journey on social media and any kind of tips that you can give folks, because that is one weak part. I’m like an old man. I’m only ten years older than you, I think, but I’m a goddamn old man when it comes to social media. I want to soak up some game from the man doing the social media really effectively, which you are.

[00:56:00.600] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah. So I think there’s basically only one thing I do that actually drives the needle to long term plan. I knew I was going to do it from the very beginning, and it is that I’m going to reply to people, particularly people who bought my course, because it’s very interesting to me that people will message me if I came in. I bought your course, and I went through and I did this and I did this, and I’m really having trouble with this. I have to figure out how to do this. And then I’ll reply, what you want to do is actually go here and do that and then that and then this, and which will lead you to that. And I give, like, a detailed answer of what to do. Oh, shit, bro. Thank you so much. I didn’t know. I didn’t think you’d reply. This is so awesome. And I’m like you didn’t think I’d reply. And they’re like, yeah, people who sell courses, like they normally don’t reply. They just take the money. And I’m like, yeah, that’s very interesting because now what happens is you respect me for having taken the time to do that.

[00:57:01.960] – Cold Email Wizard

And now that is going to offshoot into the fact that you are now going to, like, you’ll like my tweets, you’ll retweet my stuff, you’ll send my stuff, you’ll pay attention to my stuff more and like, that you start to trust me, and you like me inherently like that. So I don’t know who was who said this. It’s like a famous thing. It’s like, do the things that don’t scale in order to scale.

[00:57:23.740] – Alex Gray

I love it.

[00:57:24.570] – Cold Email Wizard

That’s what I figured.

[00:57:25.420] – Alex Gray

I’d be my favorite. Yeah, man. It’s like jay Abraham. I’m like, a big fan of Jay Abraham, you know what I mean? I don’t know. Have you read that book and read those guys books and stuff?

[00:57:38.070] – Cold Email Wizard

I haven’t booked other copywriting stuff, but I got to read his stuff.

[00:57:41.520] – Alex Gray

He’s one guy that I really, really I think you will love it because it resonates with almost everything you’re saying, frankly. Like, just finding these channels, finding his big thing is becoming a trusted advisor. Your goal is not to make money. Your goal is not to drive a fancy car. None of these things are your goal is to become a trusted advisor for your niche, for your audience. And once you achieve that, there’s almost nothing. You can fuck it up pretty quick easily. But if you’re true to the game and true to being that trusted adviser, there’s nothing that can take you. There can be other competitors, there can be you can just have this little corner of the market and just be that trusted advisor. And it’s like the most powerful thing you can possibly do, basically. I think it embodies that. And I think you’ll love the guy too, because I love watching his YouTube videos because he’ll be doing a seminar and he’s kind of like in this kind of position, like chilling in the chair with like a whiskey glass. He’s like drinking whiskey and people are throwing these questions out like you’re talking about like, hey, how do I get better deliverability?

[00:58:44.880] – Alex Gray

He’s like, you just fucking just send the damn emails, man. Send the email, you’ll get the results, man. He’s also kind of a boss. Anyway, I think you’ll enjoy that, dude. But be a trusted advisor. Becoming a trusted advisor, super important. Cool, man. I think we can kind of start wrapping this up. I don’t really want to end it. I think if you’re down to go a little further, we can I have one more question for you if you’re down for that.

[00:59:10.890] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, sure.

[00:59:12.060] – Alex Gray

Okay, so I had a number one. Let’s go to the future of Cold email wizard and your plans for the future. Let’s dive into that for a second. It’s sort of what you see. Obviously you’re tweeting about it. I don’t have to repeat yourself or anything like that. Go follow him on Twitter, by the way. Black hat wizard. Yeah, the future Cold email wizard. How do you see this playing out? Where are your goals right now? Obviously when you started you wanted to make money. Now I think you’re blooming into something that this isn’t just money, it’s also influence. There’s all kinds of things happening here. So I’m curious like where this is going and what you see for the future, man, and what’s your plans are.

[00:59:49.090] – Cold Email Wizard

Yes. What I’ve been working on now is I’m sure you know Kevin on Twitter, he does SEO and we’ve been working with him particularly on clean leads for a while and he’s like doing a really good job and we get a shit ton of traffic from that. We get like a hundred visits a day organic. Wow, that’s a lot. I’ve been doing some optimizations, right? So what I’ve been doing, particularly on the clean lead side is I have all the software, I’m going to do it for every single one of them eventually. But I’m just trying to work it out. So what I’m doing is I’m making like a three month long email sequence, right? And then what I did, I got this one guy, Jay, who’s an employee of mine, and I put him on a live chat on there, and it’s like, okay, we’re going to make a pop up message that appears 10 seconds after all there. Hey, what kind of business are you running? Like, let me know. I can show you how to scrape emails. I just put a live chat on the Cold email mastery page where it’s the same thing.

[01:00:49.410] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s like, Jay will be a little pop up after 10 seconds. You’d be like, hey, what kind of business are you running? I’ll let you know if this is right for you. That’s getting good results now. So I’m sitting there. You come up with this idea in your head like an optimization. So it’s like, okay, yeah, let me try that. And then you do that, and it’s like, oh, it increased the results, like incremental year and say, oh, cool. Now what happens is if I go and I spend money on Cold traffic and cold traffic, like Facebook ads are super expensive, but now this optimized in a much better fashion, what will happen is it’ll work a little better and maybe that’ll profit, right? And then you just grow it and grow it and grow it. And then it’s like, okay, all the people from Clean Leads, I got to point them to all my other things as well. And then from all the other people, just that same system we built for Clean Leads just built the same thing for all the other ones, and they all just lead into each other, right?

[01:01:38.290] – Alex Gray


[01:01:38.710] – Cold Email Wizard

And it’s like, I got the coaching program with Andre, which is for people who are like, it’s not for beginners, right? It’s like you’re really trying to scale. You’re really trying to get up there, build like 40,000 a month agency or some shit. And then people funnel into that. That’s a more expensive thing, right? So that results in more revenue. So now what happens is, like, the entirety of the funnel, it’s just like the back end of it. The LTB becomes larger, which allows you to pay more for front end traffic and beat everyone else, right? So it’s all these optimizations that I’ve just been building for a year and a half for this particular wizard brand. It’s like, all right. And now I kind of sit here, and it’s like, it’s kind of fun. So I’m like, well, how big can I get it? What’s the absolute maximum? And then you start to think in terms of total addressable market. It’s like, well, what’s the maximum amount of money I can make in this market? And I’m sitting here and I’m thinking it’s probably like 100 million. So I’m like, all right, well, what the fuck else am I going to do with my life?

[01:02:36.370] – Cold Email Wizard

I might as well try to make 100 million, right? Nothing else to do. So it’s like, let me just do that. You see what I mean?

[01:02:44.810] – Alex Gray

It’s a good attitude, man. It’s a good attitude.

[01:02:47.050] – Cold Email Wizard

It kind of goes from making money to just kind of being like curious and just playing the game where it’s like, okay, you play basketball, you want to be really good at basketball, you play all day, you play football, you want to be really good at it. I play a game of making money and it’s fun as fuck and I want to be really good at it.

[01:03:03.110] – Alex Gray

Do you feel like you’re working or have you ever felt like you were really working? I mean, it seems like in the drop ship days you were hustling, but at this point it seems like there’s that old quote, I don’t know who the hell said it’s, something like this general insightfulquote.com kind of thing or whatever. But if you love what you do, you’re not really working a day in your life. You’re just having fun and playing around and fucking with things and tweaking stuff.

[01:03:30.010] – Cold Email Wizard

I’ll give you an example. Just this morning I’m making a notion doc, which is like, it just shows you how to scrape emails from using a bunch of different software. And the function of it is to deliver it to the people who buy my software, send it to them so that they understand how to scrape emails, thus reducing churn and increasing trial conversion rate, right? So it’s like now I’m sitting here and thinking about the concept of adding that and then being able to see the results of it gives me dope of me, but the actual act of creating that document and filming the videos that’s work and I’m like, Fuck, I don’t want to do that.

[01:04:05.380] – Alex Gray

Got you.

[01:04:05.880] – Cold Email Wizard

But it’s like putting it in and doing it and being able to see the results that still with me. That doesn’t feel like work.

[01:04:11.740] – Alex Gray

Love it. I love it. Now that’s real. And also, I have to say too, man, you have a big focus on making money, which I think is awesome. Again, you’re a transparent guy. You’re just like, dude, I’m trying to make money. I want to hit this total addressable market. But what I’m finding too, in the way that you’re doing it, it’s very funny because you are like focused so heavy on building relationships, the live chat, you’re saying optimization, but really you’re adding another layer of hey, we’re here, we’re not a robot, we’re down to talk to you here. You’re a person, we’re trying to help you. What’s the deal? And so it’s kind of funny and the non scalable things that scale, like you said too, it’s like these things are very like, again, kind of trade show writing a letter kind of shit. It’s like walking into a store and the guy goes, hey man, I’m here if you need any help. Right?

[01:05:02.210] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s really interesting because people might be like, oh, they might look at some people, make a bunch of money. Oh, you’re like evil. I guess you could say you go back to the bad comedy, someone could theoretically come up. They’d be like, oh, you’re only in it for the money? And it’s like, yes, correct. I literally wouldn’t do it if it didn’t involve money. But the only way to acquire money is to help people solve a particular issue. So it’s like, how exactly is that evil? It’s like if you make the conscious decision to give me money, you have personally by your own will determine that what you will receive is in greater value than the money you gave me. It’s like you traded something. What you got was worth more than the money. I didn’t coerce you into making that decision. If you thought it was garbage, I’ll give you a refund. I’ve never rejected a refund request for any of my products or services ever in my life, ever. If you ask for a refund, you get one, right? So it’s where is the evil shit in here?

[01:06:00.550] – Alex Gray

Well, it’s funny. I used to try to like, back in the day, I was doing a lot of PPC shit, and I was kind of, like, figuring out niches to do PPC or kind of like, paper lead stuff for. And I was figuring out these niches, and one time I went after the insurance niche and good God, man, there are some evil motherfuckers out there, though. You know what I mean? Like this I talked to somebody about this recently. Like, you get in some niches and you’re like, goddamn, I don’t like this, man. This feels dirty. You know what I mean? But yeah, you’re actually helping people.

[01:06:29.460] – Cold Email Wizard

I just saw something on Twitter the other day. Some dude, he’s like a financial advisor, and he was like, my client here has $100,000 of student debt. It’s super high payments. And then some insurance brokers told him some insurance that’s like $500 a month. And he’s like, we’re revoking that right now.

[01:06:46.330] – Alex Gray

So we’re the good guys at the end of the day, man. Yeah, you wouldn’t do it if you didn’t make money, but God damn, you’re helping people. And you’re actually there speaking to people, ready to respond, dropping the live chat to enhance the experience. All this stuff, obviously it correlates to LTV, but it also correlates to the happiness of your customers and the completeness of their education in this space.

[01:07:10.690] – Cold Email Wizard

You’ll make less money in the short term, but you make way more in the long term.

[01:07:15.220] – Alex Gray

It’s all about the long term, right? And I know you’re thinking that way, so that’s great, man. That was a great future of cold. Email was right there, man. SEO. Big. Focus on SEO. I think everybody listening to this. Focus on that from the get go, man. That’s a mistake that I made. It’s a mistake that all of us have made at some point where we disregard the SEO in the beginning and we go, fuck, we need to get on that, right? So get on that immediately, man. Backlinks to your friends, like writing content. Also, I want to ask you this really quick, if I can even grab you for one more second. So as far as writing content for the SEO, are you writing that content? Do you have other people writing that content? What’s your thoughts on that? Because I hear a lot of conflicting opinions on that. I have my own kind of opinion on that. And I’m curious what you think about that content. Play with SEO and sort of how to go about that.

[01:08:03.510] – Cold Email Wizard

No, I let Kevl write all the content for the SEO. However, on Web Flow, we have the CMS and I’ll just make a landing page. And like, I focus primarily. Like I am good at the education side of things. OK, if you’re going to stick with using this software, you have to understand how to get maximum results for the software. So I am going to make sure I can do that by educating you as quickly and as effectively as possible. And I focus on that and then that’s all I really know how to do. I know absolutely nothing about SEO. I just pay you.

[01:08:37.360] – Alex Gray

That’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. Because my feeling always is that the more genuine that SEO content is and there’s a lot of examples out there, but converting just pieces of your course, basically converting any little piece into a content piece, it’s just magic. And I think anybody out there, man, like, if you know your craft, just start writing about it as well, man. You can outsource it later on. But man, that writing process is so therapeutic and you learn so much. I think through that process, I think through the process of teaching, you become better at cold email, you become better at business. You’ve expanded into like understanding all these complex concepts. And I want to end this interview by asking you about crypto real quick because the other day you dropped the thing. I have a note here called crypto banter. So I wanted to ask you real quick because you were talking about some wealthy people shit, which I wanted to just ask you in person about because I love the Tweet. And I was really intrigued that it’s just amazing. And it’s amazing to see it makes me so happy to see knowledge like this getting out to everybody, getting out to people that are just getting started, people in the intermediate on people that are already rich, people that are right, everybody being able to soak up this game.

[01:09:46.830] – Alex Gray

So you were talking about borrowing on assets and you were talking about somebody making fun of you, everybody making fun of you and going, fuck, man, like having any liquidity is ridiculous. You need to go dump that. You know what I mean? And so I was curious if you wanted to ruminate on that a little bit because then I’m sorry, I’m in that journey too. A little bit, and I’m like, Fuck, sometimes I don’t know what the hell to do. And I’m like, Damn. It’s a crazy thing, man. It’s a crazy thing right now.

[01:10:12.150] – Cold Email Wizard

So the concept is, like, I started learning this from some actual wealthy people, and I’m not wealthy yet. I mean, I would consider wealthy, like, I don’t know, five milliseconds wealth is your income.

[01:10:26.130] – Alex Gray

It’s a ratio of your income and your expenses. Right. Or mosey thing. I love when he says that, man. That shit really got me. Right? Anyway, continue, man.

[01:10:36.630] – Cold Email Wizard

But it’s like someone has 10 million in assets and they want to buy like, a yacht for a million dollars. Well, they could sell their assets. They could sell a million of their assets, but then they have to pay capital gains tax on the assets. But if you just take a loan against the assets and you just pay that loan down with your active income, then, like, you don’t have to pay the capital gains tax. You see what I mean?

[01:11:05.410] – Alex Gray

And as long as the asset is appreciating right, more than the interest on the loan. Right? So this was some shit you were dropping and I was going, Fuck, man, how old are you, dude?

[01:11:16.600] – Cold Email Wizard


[01:11:17.650] – Alex Gray

24. And you’re dropping this shit? And I was just like, Good God, man. What a time to be alive, man. This is just awesome. So you inspired me with that tweet. And also dumping the bag into crypto, man was a big, man.

[01:11:30.570] – Cold Email Wizard

I’m a little different. There’s a lot of, like, crypto dudes on Twitter and they’re like, ape the fuck out of, like, random ass coins. It’s like yeah. Sometimes, though, like, they put in like, fifty K. It goes up like three X and they have, like, 150. So cool. You just spent 100 grand. But listen, I’m not fucking doing that. I’m not doing that. I’ll put a ton into bitcoin in the theorem, and I leave that there. But I’ll fuck around with some little coins and maybe throw like a but it’s like I’m not aping it because I’m not a good trader.

[01:12:06.690] – Alex Gray

You’re not trading.

[01:12:08.210] – Cold Email Wizard

It goes up like three Ft or 100% or whatever. I don’t know when to sell. Like, I don’t so it’s like it starts going down. I don’t know when to sell. I just want to buy something and literally never sell it, ever.

[01:12:24.000] – Alex Gray

Yeah, you’re smart, man. And I think personally, I’m a big bitcoin guy. Even the ethereum, I don’t dip into too much. But the bitcoin, man, I’m like super. But same thing, man. I think, you know, unless you’re trading, dude, unless you’re really ready to go, that life, man. Do that life. Which is like a whole nother whole nother life, right? But that’s really helpful. And I think everybody listening to man wants to get that capital going. Start investing, man. Good lord almighty. It helps so much. And you’d have to pay the capital gains tax on those little shit coins too, man. At the end of the day, right, you say you do three X and then taxes.

[01:13:00.490] – Cold Email Wizard

It’s a short term capital gain too. It’s like 35% or some shit.

[01:13:04.660] – Alex Gray

Fucking hell. And they’re just trying to raise it and raise it and raise it here as we go. It’s super smart, man. Well, cool. I’m glad to get some of your insights on all this stuff, man. I think there’s so many takeaways in this, I don’t even want to try to summarize, but I want to thank you so much for being on the podcast, man, and spending some time with me and yeah, man, lots of great stuff coming for Cold Email Wizard in the future here. If you need to learn Cold email and get a good methodology going to get your service business growing, all that stuff, he’s the man to talk to. We also mentioned Andre, who’s from KnowledgeX and stuff and they’re teaming up. They’re doing this coaching program launching today, November 3, 2021. And goddamn, if you are kind of hitting that wall, man. We all know this wall, dude. I know this wall so well. You’re like doing it. You’re hustling it, something’s working, something trains kind of chugging, but there’s like the emergency brakes on and you’re like, fuck, I can’t get the fucking emergency brake off, right? It’s like being in a car and you’re just like, I’m just riding in this thing and get with some guys like this and just get some insights, get some shit going, some accountability and some consulting with these guys.

[01:14:12.870] – Alex Gray

You’re just going to that emergency brake will go and holy shit, you’re going to be investing in SAS as well. You’re going to be selling the old you. You’re going to be doing all the things that we talked about in this episode. Yes, blessings and success for everybody listening right now. Daniel, anything else you want to wrap up with, man? Obviously your Twitter handle and all that stuff where people can follow you and all that good jazz, but yeah, wrap it up, my man.

[01:14:37.740] – Cold Email Wizard

Yeah, just go follow me on Twitter. Black hat wizard with two DS on the end. But bro, thanks so much for having me. This is fun.

[01:14:44.960] – Alex Gray

Two DS. Man you ever seen that movie? Idiocracy no. Mike Jones movie. Oh, dude, you got to write that down, man. Idiocracy Mike, this guy’s from Beaver and Butthead, right, who made it. And there’s this like pimp in the in the story who is kind of a side character named Upgrade with two DS. And he goes, It’s two DS for a double dose of my pimpin, my pimpin smoothness or some shit like that. So you just kind of maybe you can use that as a tagline later. You go, it’s Black Hat Wizard with two DS for a double dose of this pimpin, man. Of this shit. Alright, man, you have a great rest of the day, man. I’m going to go ahead and log off. Thank you for being here, man.

[01:15:26.160] – Cold Email Wizard

Bye, dude. Peace out. Thank you so much.

Looking for an alternative to Cold Email Mastery course? Check the Lead Generation Masterclass.

Share this guide.

Join the discussion.

Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
✨ Free Cold Email Course

The secrets to cold email.

Get results with cold email and LinkedIn faster. It’s free.

Join our free 7-day cold email bootcamp and shortcut the process.

Everything you need to get started with cold email and outbound lead generation. 100% free.


Take the next step with the Master B2B Sales course.

Learn everything you need to get from a no-brainer offer to consistent closed deals

7-Day Free Trial

Give it a try for free. 100% risk-free.

Get access to 200 million+ business emails & phone numbers. Automate your cold email and LinkedIn lead generation.

❗️No credit card required